165 | TE009 | Transcending Eschatology | Part 9 | Daniel's Final Vision
Date: August 7, 2023
Welcome back to our series on Eschatology - the study of End Time events.
So let's review where we've been:
Episode 1: The Doomsday Clock - We discussed our social and cultural beliefs about the End of Time. Typically based on science and entertainment.
Episode 2: The Flip Side - We dove into End Time beliefs that are based on spiritual or religious belief systems. And we looked at some of the major world religions.
Episode 3: Carrying the Torch - We discussed the history and origins of Christian Eschatology - and how it can be traced all the way from Adam and Eve to us today.
Episode 4: Choosing Sides - We discussed the high level categories most Christians fall into when it comes to eschatology.
Episode 5: Making It Plain - We jumped in to Bible passages that talk about the End of Time. Plain language that makes it easy to understand.
Episode 6: The Left Bookend - We moved into the adult pool and walked through seven stories in the Book of Daniel. We then walked through the first piece of Apocalyptic Prophecy.
Episode 7: Expanding on the Statue - We looked at Daniel's 2nd and 3rd dreams and how they simply build on the first one. We also introduced prophetic math, and we discussed the 1,260 Day Prophecy and the 2,300 Day Prophecy.
Episode 8: Daniel's 70 Weeks - We looked at Daniel's dream in Chapters 9 and 10. We refer to this as the 70 Weeks Prophecy and it is a very important one. Not just because of the information presented - but because of the various interpretations we see coming out of it.
Today, we wrap up the Left Bookend by discussing Daniel's final vision documented in Daniel 10-12.
Today's Topic: Transcending Eschatology | Part 9 | Daniel's Final Vision
Dreams with Increasing Complexity
Past, Present and Future
All Those Crazy Time Periods
// CHAPTER 1: DREAMS WITH INCREASING COMPLEXITY
So as we get to the end of the Left Bookend - I want to go back and review a concept we've thrown out a few times.
It's this idea that Daniel's dreams - or visions - are all connected.
Now to some - this might seem strange - to others it might spark some interest - and to still others it just goes right over their heads as unimportant.
But to me, this is actually a non-coincidence. One of those things that exists because it's meant to exist.
It's one of the things that makes me even more confident that the Bible, and more specifically Apocalyptic Prophecy isn't just a work of fiction.
At the very beginning we had the conversation about the Bible - and that people view the Bible in at least 3 ways:
The Inerrant Word of God: Every single word was determined by God. There are no errors. There is no debate. God said it, and I believe it
Errant, but Very Important: So even if there are some problems and contradictions - the Bible is still the inspired book God will use to get the truth to future generations
A Good Book with Some Good Stuff In It: The Bible is simply a compilation of human writings - some are helpful, some are simply meant to inspire us and there are a lot of artistic, and poetic things left up to our interpretation
And finally - I'm just going to add a 4th option: Complete Work of Fiction: Not worth the paper it's written on...
Now, I'm only bringing this up again because over the last 6-12 months I've been seeing these categories in living color on the old TikTok.
But one of the fastest growing groups I've encountered are those deconstructing their faith. They refer to themselves as deconstructionists. They describe themselves as deconstructing their religion or faith. And the more I see from this group the more I've started to see the "experts" come out of the woodwork. The people that these deconstructionists follow. Where they get their information. And often where they get their logic and their arguments for their need to deconstruct.
Now on the surface this is not a bad thing. In fact it's very common. Think about it. When we were knee deep in Christianity - drinking the Kool-Aid so to speak - we did the same thing.
We bought and read books from people like C.S. Lewis, Max Lucado, John Eldridge, Lee Strobel, Rick Warren, Craig Groeschel, etc.
Why? Because they were the thought leaders. They provided us the logic and the arguments as to why we believed what we did.
So as you begin to deconstruct - it makes sense that you would look around for thought leaders who do a great job explaining the logic behind deconstruction.
We came by it honestly.
However, if you look back at the thought leaders we used to follow in Christian circles - you realize many of them didn't agree with each other. Which is strange right? I mean we looked to them for guidance - for logic - and for the arguments against the rest of the world. And they didn't agree? There wasn't a consensus among them?
What?
Rob Bell is a great example of this.
When I lived in the Midwest, Rob Bell, then Senior Pastor at Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids, MI was a rising star. He was edgy, pushed boundaries and had a unique way of presenting information. Staff at the church I attended took annual trips to Mars Hill for conferences, Student Ministry retreats, and whatever else they could consume.
But Rob was just a little off from the mainstream. He wrote books, and one of them was apparently a little too much for the Christian community.
So he was blacklisted. Rob eventually left Mars Hill due to the tension there. And ever since then has been bashed by the Christian elite as a heretic for his views on heaven, hell, and the psychological nature of humanity.
So perfect example right?
One minute we're reading Rob Bell books for the logic and the arguments. The next we're supposed to banish him to Malibu, CA because he is a heretic.
And that's something many people fail to see as Christians. That there are numerous voices speaking into your life - and half of them don't agree with each other.
Which is exactly what starts to happen when you start to deconstruct. You enter a world of deconstructionists - one where there seems to be a common thread - but there really isn't.
In fact there are 1000 different voices - each a little different - each coming from a different place - and each having a different goal or destination.
Within deconstruction circles we find:
Some weeding out religious and traditional elements that are harmful
Some leaving megachurches and looking for more traditional religious communities
Some throwing everything out - but looking to slowly add pieces back into their life
And still others heading the exact opposite direction - choosing Atheism as the eventual goal
And there is everything inbetween
So back to TikTok - and the world of deconstruction I've been observing for a while now.
Within this community - people have emerged - new voices claiming that they have all the answers. They often stitch other peoples posts - people hurting, people questioning or even people saying things they don't agree with.
But their voices are much louder. They have the following - the numbers. So they rise to the top as the experts:
First, there are the science-only types - those that need scientific proof for everything in order to believe
Next, you have the over-educated types - those who can shoot down the Bible because they studied linguistics and ancient manuscripts at Yale
Then you have the conspiracy-theorists that are all about the Bible being part of a cover up - that there were people living on Earth before us - people that were part human and part fallen angel
And finally, you have the politically-charged group - where everything goes back to politics and how our world is falling apart because people are polarizing
And those are just four of the groups you'll meet on "Deconstruction TikTok"
So why do I bring all of this up?
Well - because one of the common threads in all of this is the way these groups are looking at the Bible.
On TikTok - the common thread is the way people are looking at the Bible:
At best, is nothing more than a collection of fiction stories
At worst - a collection of stories written as part of a conspiracy by the white patriarchy to remain in power
The over-educated types I referred to above all seem to hold this view. According to them - they can prove that everything we've been taught about the Bible is false. That specific books of the Bible were not written by the authors we believed them to be written by. And that many of them weren't written when we thought they were written. Meaning some if not many were not prophetic in any way shape or form - but in fact were written after the fact - and presented to be prophetic.
Now you can see why this is important. Especially when it comes to Apocalyptic Prophecy.
Because if this is the way you view it - there's no sense in reading it.
Any more than me reading the book Jurassic Park one time for entertainment value.
And like I said - this seems to be the common explanation of the Bible in these deconstruction circles.
Not sure which came first - chicken or the egg.
But with this view of the Bible - deconstruction is almost mandatory. With no guiding principles or foundation to build upon - you may as well throw the baby out with the bathwater.
But let's stop for a minute and think through this from another perspective.
The one that sees the Bible as having it's problems. But one that also believes God had His hand in the formation of it.
That there is something bigger at work - something that sets this book apart from Jurassic Park - and every other book in history.
It's a book that answers the big three questions:
Where did we come from?
Why are we here ?
Where do we go when we die?
It's the book that is the foundation of both Judaism (The Torah) and Christianity. Two world religions that make up over a third of the world's population.
Throw in Islam - the other Abrahamic Religion and now you're at close to 60% of the world's population.
Three religions that are directly connected to the Bible, parts of the Bible whose history is documented on some level in its pages.
I know it's still a leap. Choosing to believe that there is something mystical about a book that many believe is a fairy tale - or a complete work of fiction.
But at some point - as a Christian - you'll need to pick a side - make a decision about the Bible.
Okay - that was a really long rant. Back to Daniel's dreams - and how they are all connected - and with increasing complexity.
I went on that rant because this is one of the reasons I believe there is something more to the Bible.
To me - Daniel doesn't seem like he is writing a story. Creating a piece of fiction.
It sounds like he is recounting stories that actually happened throughout his life. To him, to his friends and to the kings he interfaced with.
Then - he starts recounting dreams he had - visions for which he had no interpretation.
But each came at different times in his life - and each was eventually interpreted by a Being, or by Gabriel when Daniel asked for help - or when they saw that he needed it.
So we see that each dream or vision is connected. And we see advancing complexity as we move through each:
Daniel 2: The King's Dream of the Large Statue:
This dream took us all the way from Babylon to the End of Time
A high level flyover of the way civilizations would come and go until God returned to take control
Daniel 7: Daniel's Dream of the 4 Beasts and the Little Horn:
Another high level walkthrough from Babylon to the End of Time
But this time more information was given about the time during the divided kingdom time period
The rise of this power called the Little Horn
Daniel 8: Daniel's Dream with Barnyard Animals and the Little Horn:
No Babylon this time
But the Ram is Media & Persia
And the Goat is Greece
Then we see more information about Rome and the growth of the Little Horn power
Daniel 11-12: Daniel's Dream about the King of the North and the King of the South:
This is where we are today
Technically I'm supposed to walk through this dream during this episode
But for now - just know that it is no different
It begins describing 4 Kings from Media and Persia
Then talks about a Mighty King during the Greek Civilization
Then calls Rome the King of the North
And walks through the years when the kingdom was divided
It wraps up with a conversation about the Time of the End
And the return of Jesus (called Michael in this passage)
// CHAPTER 2: PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE
Like I said - this episode is to walk through the final dream Daniel had.
It is documented in Daniel 10-12. And it follows the theme we've already seen.
Explaining things from Daniel's day - in this case living in the Media & Persia civilization - to the End of Time.
Now I'm not going to lie and lead you to believe that I have this all figured out.
This is the most complex of the dreams - and comes with numerous references to people, events and changes in power throughout history.
I can find conflicting articles - each suggesting they have all the answers.
But at least no one can argue about the beginning of the dream.
In Daniel 11 it flat out says,
“Now then, I will reveal the truth to you. Three more Persian kings will reign, to be succeeded by a fourth, far richer than the others. He will use his wealth to stir up everyone to fight against the kingdom of Greece."
Sound familiar? Of course it does!
Because as we've seen - each of Daniel's dreams is connected - and as we move forward each gets a little more complex.
So in this, the final dream - it makes sense that Daniel really gets into the weeds.
As the verses progress we realize we're listening to a history lesson.
A lecture if you will describing kings, rulers, alliances, marriages, wars, invasions, warships, temple fortresses, etc.
And again - I'm pretty sure each of these things actually happened. I just don't know how necessary it is for us to determine each and every piece of it.
Even within a specific group who interpret prophecy the same way - this dream has had multiple explanations.
And knowing that - there's no point in me (a total amateur) attempting to suggest which interpretation is right.
But maybe that isn't the point. Maybe this dream exists simply to get it through our heads that civilizations will rise and fall all the way to the End of Time. And then - Jesus will return to set everything straight.
But let's try to at least summarize things when it comes to our two big camps of interpretation:
Historicists:
Typically look backward through history in order to determine if the prophecy was fulfilled in the past - hence the name historicists:
Media & Persia:
Cambyses
False Smerdis
Darius I
Xerxes
Greece:
Alexander the Great
Battles between the Seleucids and the Ptolomies
Rome:
Julius Caesar
Cleopatra
Augustus
and Tiberius
Then everything changes in Daniel 11 verses 40-45
Because this is where people believe different things:
Some believe the the King of the North and the King of the South refer to Turkey & Egypt
Others believe it refers to The Papacy and Atheism
And still others believe it is the Papacy and the Nation of Islam
Futurists:
Futurists may believe that some of the references to the Media/Persian and Greek Kings exist
But are quick to push much of this dream into the future - hence the "futurist" view on prophecy
Many futurists believe in a historical character named Antiochus Epiphanes
And they believe that he fulfills some of the historical prophecies
Then, in Daniel 11 they suggest that the battles between the King of the North and the King of the South involve a new version - or possibly a reincarnation of this person
It's not clear if that person is actually reincarnated at the End of Time - or if the traits of that person are simply taken on by a different person
But either way - at the End of Time there is said to be an Israelite will grow strong and powerful - and will take on the traits of Antiochus Epiphanes
This individual will become the final Anti-Christ figure and usher in the 7 years of tribulation
// CHAPTER 3: ALL THOSE CRAZY TIME PERIODS
To wrap things up I wanted to address the interesting time periods discussed in Daniel 12.
I find it fascinating that we just walked through a very large dream with numerous elements to understand. Then at the very end of the book - Daniel throws in some new time periods.
Or actually the "man dressed in linen" who was talking to Daniel - helping him understand when all of this was going to take place.
To this point we've discussed the following:
A really long time prophecy: The 2300 Day-Year Prophecy
A shorter one: The 1260 Day-Year Prophecy
And Daniel's 70 Weeks: Which worked out to 490 Literal Years
But in Daniel 12 we get a few more:
In verses 11 and 12 it says, “From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days. And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days!"
So we have two more interesting times presented:
A 1,290 Day-Year Prophecy
And a 1,335 Day-Year Prophecy
So the easy thing to do is discuss the Futurist interpretation - because there really isn't one.
We've talked before about the Futurists take on the Day-Year Principle.
There are times when they apply it and times when they do not
In this case I don't believe they use the principle
So that means you're left with two pretty small time periods - periods of 1290 and 1335 days respectively
Both periods being just over 3 1/2 years in length. But definitely not 3 1/2 years in length
I make that point because prophecy has been very clear in giving us a 3 1/2 year prophecy - in various formats
Time, times and half a time
1,260 days
42 months
Each referring to a very precise amount of time
It's where we get the 1,260 Year Prophetic time period
So these two time periods are definitely new - and must refer to something totally different
The Futurist believes these are two time periods that will exist at the end of time
No explanation about when they will occur or what they signify
But they are said to occur at the End of Time - or in the last days
So that leaves us with the Historicist interpretation:
Now I do need to clarify something here:
Based on my research
There is the traditional Historicist interpretation - on that I believe goes all the way back to before catholicism
And there is the Adventist (or Seventh-Day Adventist) version of Historicism posed by the Millerites back in the 1800s
They are very similar - but there are some deviations as well
And most of it is due to the way people interpret the dates and times presented in the Book of Daniel
Both camps seemed to get 1843 or 1844 as an end date - in fact the last date they could define in all of the apocalyptic prophecies
Some Historicists assigned no specific event to this date
But the Millerites believed it meant the world was going to end
William Miller set a number of dates based on his interpretation of the 2,300 day prophecy
But the one that really took off was October 22, 1844
To the point where all of the Millerites began living as though it was true
They quit their jobs, and the spent the bulk of their time telling everyone they knew about this date
But the day came and went - nothing happened
This is now referred to as the Great Disappointment - and forced the Millerites to go back to the Bible and figure out what went wrong
What came out of it was a new belief in something called the Investigative Judgment
A belief that the date given in 1843 was the last date for a very different reason
It wasn't the end of time - it was simply the beginning of the end
That in 1843 Jesus went into the temple in Heaven to audit the books
To go through the personal record of each and every person on earth past, present and future
This can be found in Daniel - but also in Revelation
Scenes from Heaven where God, Jesus, strange beings and hosts of angels watch anxiously as the books were opened and this process began
I say the beginning of the end because when you look at all the time periods presented in prophecy - there are none left
After the 1798 date and eventually the 1843 date - there is nothing left
Which means we're at the end
This is the final scene in the movie
And that scene started in 1843
If that's what you believe of course!
So let's wrap things up with the timeline.
I'll put a couple graphics in the show notes if you're interested in how everything seems to line up.
But here are the major dates presented from the Historicist perspective - starting with the oldest:
457 BC kicks it all off. This is believed to be when Artexerxes gave the decree for the Israelites to rebuild Jerusalem
408 BC is next. This is when the Israelites completed the rebuilding of Jerusalem
Next we have the three dates for the final week of Daniel's 70 Weeks:
Futurists believe this week was cut off from the other 69 and moved to the end of time
But Historicists tend to believe that the 70 Weeks are all one large time period
Starting in 27 AD at Jesus Baptism
31 AD - the death of Jesus
And finally 34 AD with the stoning of Stephen
Next we have 508 AD which is believed to be a key puzzle piece in what was coming. Clovis, King of the Franks, defeated the Visigoths - led by Alaric II. And this set the foundation for the coming Dark Ages. Church and State were united at the Council or Orleans
Next we have 538 AD a date believed to be important because Justinian declared himself no longer a soldier - but a theologian. He began a process of combining church and state to where they were able to persecute anyone not following the agreed upon laws and mandates
Next up is 1798 AD - referred to as the deadly wound. When this persecuting power lost it's power for a short time. Said to be fulfilled on "February 15, 1798, when French troops entered Rome and their commander, General Berthier, deposed Pope Pius VI...This all started on January 11, 1798 when an order was issued by the French government to its troops to march on Rome and occupy it. The army accordingly marched southwards under General Berthier, with orders from Bonaparte to expel the Pope and set up a republic in Rome."
And finally we have 1843 AD which we discussed earlier. The Great Disappointment - and the final date given in Bible Prophecy
So why did I just walk through each of those dates?
Well - because these dates ate the starting and stopping dates for the big time periods we discussed. Here they are based on the start and stop dates:
Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years: Started in 457 BC and ended when Stephen was stoned in 34 AD
The 1,260 Day/Year Prophecy: Began in 538 AD and ended with the deadly wound in 1798 AD
The 1,290 Day/Year Prophecy: Began in 508 AD and ended with the deadly wound in 1798 AD
The 1,335 Day/Year Prophecy: Began in 508 AD and ended with the Great Disappointment in 1843 AD
And finally - we have the overarching 2,300 Day/Year Prophecy: The one that stretches from 457 BC all the way to 1843 AD
Now - I know that's like drinking from a fire hose. And we could spend hours debating and documenting why each date was picked and how it came to be.
But in this day and age people just want information - and they want it quick.
It's the social media age. We flip from image to image and video to video in seconds.
So content like this is overwhelming to most of us.
So We'll Land the Plane Here:
The simple summary from all of this is that thousands of historians and theologians have come before us. They did the hard work. They made the mistakes and then went back and corrected them. They set dates and then realized they weren't supposed to.
They were disappointed - but kept coming back to get it right.
And while we still argue over the details - I believe we have everything we need to get a pretty clear picture of our future.
The fact that the dates and time periods we just walked through all match and fit together like a puzzle is amazing to me.
If you can't see the incredible complexity that exists in all of these things coming together the way they do - you probably need your eyes checked.
But again - I get it. It's a lot. Prophecy is a lot to take in. And it totally changes your view on life and the future as well. Something many people are afraid of.
It's easier to just not know some of this stuff. Live life oblivious. Just enjoy the days we have and let the future take care of itself.
And I get that. There is something very important about that viewpoint. Because people who get too into prophecy - dare I say William Miller - can miss the forest for the trees.
My hope is that we can do both. Have a good understanding of prophecy - and feel confident that we understand the future. But at the same time hold onto what we have right here and now. Our spouses, families, friends, loved ones. Nature, culture, sports, entertainment, and all of the things that make us who we are.
Enjoy the life God gave us.
Well friends, thanks again for making the journey with me.
This wraps up the Left Bookend - the Book of Daniel.
Next time we jump to the big dog - the Right Bookend known as the Book of Revelation.
Until then - have a great week or two and we'll see you back here in no time.
And as always, keep Transcending Human!